New Celica Engine

[Europa]

I wanted to know if anyone knows about theengine for the new Celica. Supposedly 2.4 liters and 230HP. Is this a future option for the Elise? I saw this in last month's Speed mag. Thanks!

[chosunman]

I highly doubt it for the celica. There wouldn't be a reason for them to develop a larger motor for such a compact car. Besides, a 240hp 2.4 motor would not be a cost efficient strategy for the celica and would place it out of the 16-20k range.

[HighporttwincaM]

It's funny how you some how can equate displacement to cost. As for the larger celica engine, I've read the same information in a european auto publication. Response from an engine like that would be horrible considering the terrible bore to stroke ratio... Throttle response in a drivers car can make or break the driving experience in my opinion. Although, while the 2ZZ is a very respectible engine, there are certianly better options out there... Pending politics ofcourse. :p

[chosunman]

Originally posted by HighporttwincaM
It's funny how you some how can equate displacement to cost.

Never said that a "bigger motor" would cost more. I said that it would cost more to develop a new 2.4 highoutput engine (240hp) for the celica. And, can you honestly tell me that this wouldn't increase the overall price of the car?? We're not talking about re-using 2.4 truck motors out of the tacoma lineup either. An engine to produce 100 hp per liter NA, would take some serious R&D and COSTS.

[HighporttwincaM]

Auto manufacturers, the Japanese in perticular, with their government imposed taxes on displacement are constantly developing the next generation cleaner, low displacement, high out-put engine. Lets not forget the fact that before the 2ZZ there were other "hot" toyota 4 cylinder engines in previous itterations of the Celica, at one point they to required engineering and re-tooling costs. Whenever a new generation and sometimes even the next model year of a vehicle is released there is generally a 2-5% price increase to offset inflation and some of the "serious R&D and COSTS" in development. Through-out the life of the power plant all those initial tooling costs, development, etc. are deperciated over the production life of the new engine. You should also take into account that every previous engine that Toyota or any other manufacturer develops provides invaluable data to assist in the cost effect and brisk deveopment of a new powerplant. Naturally, we should expect some sort of price increase. BTW Generating 100hp per liter is hardly a feat of technology by today's standards. Honda did it with the production version of the B16A (160hp) 1.6L 4 cylinder engine back in 1987.

[chosunman]

Hardly a feat, to develop 100hp per liter NA?? Well, someone better tell that to GM or Ford. They're still using pushrod V8's putting down half that much as the other half of the world is two levels above them in terms of technology.


I agree with your logic about Japanese companies constantly developing newer engines, but my initial point was that the Celica 2zz motor was still fairly new in design and would find it very odd, from a cost perspective that toyota would drop in a heavier and more expensive "new" 2.4 motor in the vehicle.

[HighporttwincaM]

Every engine is a compromise, you give alittle here to get alittle there... The 2ZZ is not a completely issue free engine in its own right (not to say the 2ZZ isn't a quite capable and reliable engine). Like anything in life there is always something bigger, better, stronger and faster. :D

[jsrsx]

If it had to stay in the Toyota family, I wouldn't mind the 3S-GE in the Lotus. TRD-modified versions in Japan are making 270bhp NA...and the rev-happiness of those TRD 3S-GEs are insane!

[HighporttwincaM]

Neat engine but it is heavier and it doesn't have an EGR, (exhaust gas recirculator for cold start emissions) meaning it wouldn't be EPA legal. Would be pretty neat in TRD trim. A normal 3SGE BEAMs engine is rated at 197HP or 200PS crank, unfortuneately on an engine dyno they dont live up to that number, only about 180hp at the crankshaft. We build a supercharger kit for that engine in the Toyota Altezza which brings it to about 250-260hp crankshaft.

[jsrsx]

Hmm, didn't know about the lack of an EGR. Oh well. That's the only Toyota engine I know of that's relatively new and would've been a good replacement/upgrade for the Lotus. I still would've rather Lotus struck a deal w/ Honda and used the K20A. The TRD 3SGE claims 270bhp. Not sure if that lives up to its numbers either, but I have a vid of it on the track and it looks wicked. The specs look like a race motor...big cams, high compression, etc. Not sure that would run well on craptastic 91 octane.

[HighporttwincaM]

More important then fuel requirements is the fact that with those crazy lift cams, the valve springs are going to be extremely stiff. This could lead to rapid camshaft wear, cracked retainers, and dropped valves (AKA catostrophic engine failure). The moral of this story is.... race engines don't have to run for 100,000 miles without a rebuild.:p

[jsrsx]

The TRD 3SGE I saw isn't a race engine, I just said the specs look like it. It's a sport upgrade available for any owner. You can buy it in stages or the complete package. It's pricey as hell, but it seems to have the output. I don't remember what was included, but do remember there were cams and higher comp pistons. I don't know what the static compression gets raised to, but it's likely pretty high since it's a japanese-specific kit...I'm guessing about 13:1. And I don't know the specs of the cams either, but it's equivalent to a heavily modified B-series here...big cams, high comp, good external flow components, lightweight clutch/fw. It's a moot point regardless since the EGR issue would scare Lotus away immediately. Unless someone w/ money to burn wanted to bring a prebuilt TRD 3SGE over and swap it in. But if that's the case, the K20A would be a better choice money-wise.
I hope the rumored charger being worked on between Lotus and TRD is twin-screw based and NOT roots based. Tho, I doubt it. Can't wait to see PE's turbo setup too!

[HighporttwincaM]

There is a guy here with one of those TRD race prepared 3S' in a 1986 corolla GTS hatch back. It is rated at 240hp crankshaft. It also doesn't have a plenum so cold start emissions would be pretty horrible. Sure is sexy though.

[jsrsx]

I wonder how similar that one is to the one I saw. The one I saw isn't sold as a complete engine, it's an upgrade kit to the Altezzas in Japan and is supposed to be rated at 270hp crank. With how strict emissions tests are these days in cali, nothing passes...you can barely pass w/ a I/H/E now (literally!).

[HighporttwincaM]

It is highly illegal and I cannot condone it but there are various Smog test labs out there that will take your money (150-250 bucks) without having your car even there and give you a passed smog cert. ;) Now an offense like this by a smog lab can net the smog tech up to 6 years in prison I believe.