barber vs bondurant

[jdwek]

Dear All,

I would like to learn to learn to drive like some if you undoubtedly do like using heel and toe, Double clutching and the like.
I am hoping to get even more enjoyment from my lotus on its arrival.
Would some of you care to comment on the relative worth or benefits of the Skip Barber courses vs the Bondurant courses?
Which is better?
I note the Bondurant course is at least cheaper!
WHat else would you do to learn how to drive in this new way?

[Vangman]

JDWEK,

I had applied to Skip barber to be an instructor. Unfortunately, I didn’t have enough suspension experience to make the cut. However, I got to sit thru most of the classes and shadow a few instructors as they worked with the students. I was very impressed with the professionalism and the attention they gave all their students. I walked feeling they had perfected the art of teaching a novice how to drive a racecar.

But from the student side, you get out of the school what you put into it. The guys that shadowed the instructors, listened intently and applied the advice and criticism progressed through the school. There were other students that felt they already knew everything there was to driving and they got nothing additional out of the school.

As for learning heel and toe, if you take your time and think about it before you get out on the road, it is easy. There are several ways to do it but my preferred way (if the pedals are close enough together) is to use the ball of my big toe for the brakes and blip the throttle with my little toes. Try sitting in your driveway with the engine off and the e brake on. Depress the brake with the ball of your big toe. Then try rotating your foot anti-clockwise around the ball of your foot to actuate the throttle. Sit there and keep practicing this. The most important thing is to be able to maintain constant pressure to the brake pedal while you are rolling your foot on the throttle. Once you get the feel for it then you can take it to a parking lot to try it while in motion. But be careful not to stomp on the brakes and lock up the wheels. Don't try starting this in any higher gear than third.

This process takes most of the first day so you can see it isn’t an easy process to learn.:p

Good luck and remember, there is always something to learn. Going to either school is not a bad idea I would just recommend Skip Barber. And there are going to be other posts that recommend Bondurant . My other suggestion is to call both schools and ask if you can sit in for ½ a day and observe. I don’t think they’ll have a problem with that.

[Feffman]

JDWEK:

You may want to check out the discount program Lotus Ltd. has with a number of driving/racing schools.

Lotus Ltd. Track Discount Program

Mark Pfeffer

[tims]

In my very humble opinion, having participated in the Barber school (3 day), witnessed the Bertil Roos schools at BeaveRun, participated in several club schools as well as watching them at BeaveRun, I believe that the best value for the money for a street driver who hopes to begin picking up performance driving skills is with a club school (especially a BMW Club school). You could do several weekend club schools for the price of one Barber, Bonderaunt or Roos school, and if you desire some basic instruction in performance driving, they provide a good platform from which to grow. BTW, you generally don't have to drive the marque that organizes the school to participate. I had attended a few BMW schools before doing the Barber school, and found that I was very much ahead of the curve. Bertil Roos is a great school for those who want to get the hang of a single seat formula car. The 4-day school gives you lots of seat time and professional instruction. Given all of that, and perhaps being a bit biased, I believe that our BeaveRun schools are very good. We really concentrate in both the importance of the ocular portion of driving as well as reading the feedback of the vehicle to the driver's inputs. Much of the vehicle language (that the driver must understand and interpret) is the same whether you are driving an older rear wheel drive Chevy Caprice or a true sports car. Naturally, the sports car response to driver inputs is more direct and controlled.

[JLSELISE]

Humble though they claim to be, I fully agree with tims comments. Club schools are a superior value for getting the basics and feel of performance driving. I instruct for the Audi club and can recommend their extensive program highly--you get 2 intense days of one-on-one instruction plus all kinds of support at the track for ~$350. I've been through the Russell and Roos schools and although they may provide a firmer technical foundation for the would-be racer, they are hardly a requirement for safe performance driving on the road or track.

[xmeromotu]

I did the Skip Barber class about 12 years ago, and it was one of the greatest weekends of my life! That said, I haven't had the time (or $) to participate in the Skip Barber racing as I might have wished. I do, however, get to drive my BMW M3 almost daily, and every on- or off-ramp is a chance to have a bit of fun. Only problem is that the left front tire lasts only half as long as the right front, since most ramps are right turns.

I completely agree with the other posters who said that club schools are the best way to learn to drive a car. The local BMW, Porsche, Audi and maybe other clubs, all have access to the wonderful new Barber Motorsports track, where the Elise was recently trotted out and tested for the media. http://autos.msn.com/advice/article....22486&src=News

There is also the Porsche driving school at Barber, but like Skip Barber, it will cost you $2,500 instead of $400. Of course, you always have to figure you'll use $200 - $300 worth of tires and brakes at a club school, but it's still much less costly, and you get to learn about your own car at the same time.

Is there a difference? Sure, but not $2,000 worth of difference unless you plan on becoming the next Danny Sullivan (Danny was a Skip Barber instructor who had the luck to have a rich student one weekend who started sponsoring him shortly after the class).

The point of driving on a track is to learn to drive the car to its limits, and there was a guy throwing his Chevy Cavalier around the Barber track pretty well last year. If you have the money, then by all means, take a Skip Barber class, or go to the Bondurant school, which I hear is good but have not attended. You will learn heel-and-toe and why you need to double-clutch a race car when downshifting.

That said, you don't need to double-clutch your personal car, because the teeth on the gears are much finer and mesh much easier. Heel and toe is something you can, and will, learn at a good club event, for thousands less than a professional school would cost. Also, you'll meet people in your community with a shared interest in driving, which can always be handy.

[Terry Clark]

Nationally and for me in the Chicago area, can anyone recommend which club schools are open to us now?

I raced a Porsche 911 over a decade ago, and as I recall only the Alfa Romeo club would admit non-marque participants. This was repeated to me as the same just a month ago by a Chicago Lotus club member.

How about Porsche, BMW, and others?

There are Open Track days that Fox Valley (the Chicago Lotus dealer) sponsors that are open to Elise and non-Elise cars. And they have an instruction day with the English Lotus factory drivers as instructors in May 2005 for $1200. They must be making the rounds of the US. Any comments on what they do?

What else can we sign up for?

Terry

[char]

The Chicago Region SCCA has a 2 day solo driver's school called "the Learning Curve" scheduled for April 9 and 10 at the Route 66 Raceway in Joilet. It's $100 for 2 days. You can register on line at http://register.scca-chicago.com/ or call them at 847 885-7831.

I'll be there, in my yellow Elise.

[LastToy]

I participated in a 3-day Skip school couple years back at Lime Rock. I've done ~ a dozen driving schools days with Audi, BMW, and other clubs before this. I did not learn anything fundamentally new at the Skip school but I got to practice a lot more. It was so much more fun but it was so much more $. I recommend doing a few driving school events before going to a racing school. I've learned so much more from getting a 10-minute ride in a stock Dodge Neon driven by a Skip Barber instructor than all the other events/classes I've attended put together... it's funny this way. I'm not sure I would have felt this way if I didn't have prior experience/teaching from driving schools I've attended. I recommend you attend Audi or BMW driving schools over other schools at first (I don't think Porsche allows other makes and there are a lot of clubs out there with relatively little emphasis on safety). I felt Audi and BMW clubs guided students along at an appropriate pace with very heavy emphasis on safety and proper track etiquette. They are not afraid to discipline students for wrong doing vs. for-profit clubs. I have to warn you... it's addictive.

[ervsch]

Originally posted by Terry Clark
Nationally and for me in the Chicago area, can anyone recommend which club schools are open to us now?

As mentioned before - check out the Audi Club. Their website lists out all the upcoming events. Within a 2-4 hour radius of the Chicago area there are a bunch of events this year:

Autobahn Country Club (Joliet, IL) X 2, Grattan (Grand Rapids, MI), Blackhawk Farms (Rockton, IL), Gingerman (Grand Haven, MI), and Road America. And if you're willing to go a little futher - Mid-Ohio too.

I've been running with them for the last 8 years - they're a great low key group. The Autobahn event is the first of April, and will be my first track event in the Elise - previously I was running an Audi S4. But, typically only about half of the cars at the events are Audis, the rest are a mix of BMWs, Porsches, etc.

The Chicago area and Wisconsin BMW clubs also allow non-marque cars as well. Although, the Chicago region requires hard tops for convertibles, so that keeps me out. I've heard that the Wisconsin group isn't as stringent about hard tops, so I may check them out - I'd love to run Road America more than once a year.

Hope to see you out there Terry!

[LARRY22331]

Just want to have fun? Try the Jim Hall Go Kart Racing 1 hour north of Los Angeles! Never had so much racing fun!

Larry
2005 Yellow Elises

[NMRJock]

Originally Posted by JLSELISE

I've been through the Russell and Roos schools

Which did you prefer? I did the five day Roos school and thought it was excellent. Truly a great life experience.